Now what color? I'm thinking of Charleston Green, a green so dark it's almost black, a color I love in gardens. You see it all over Charleston, South Carolina. My one reservation is that such a dark color will absorb a lot of light, so possibly a stone color instead? I definitely don't want to leave the wood bare. Suggestions welcome.
This was the view toward the new extension a couple of weeks ago.
Now I need the contractor's help with more of the "heavy lifting." I gave him the rough plan below as a guide to installation of a few garden basics: a 5-foot by 14-foot bluestone paved area outside the glass doors to capture drainage water, a start on the garden pool, a hole roughly 3.5 by 8.5 feet (in which I'll build the pool when spring comes), and a plan to lay geotextile fabric for weed suppression under a 3-inch gravel layer as the base of the garden floor (the gridded area on the plan).
The ground elevation rises a foot or more from the house to the back of the yard (there was an 80-foot-tall mulberry there until hurricane Irene came through last fall, so the high elevation at the back can't be changed). I asked the contractor to "step up" the fence if necessary, and to add timbers to terrace the garden, thus accommodating the changing elevation. I'd actually prefer two 6- or 8-inch rises, front by back, but I'll live with what is necessary to avoid the cost of moving a large volume of soil through the house for disposal. The black dots are likely locations for trees--probably Sunburst Honey Locust, but that still may change.
Next week I'll get my first look at the space from outside. With luck and good weather, the initial paving may be finished too.
No planting plans yet. I've thought over numerous design and planting options (here and here and here), and I believe I'll go with the grove of box woods under the trees with random, modular perennial plantings (exactly what that is will remain to be seen once I've had the opportunity to experience the garden in its formative stage). Of course, there may be new ideas, surprises.
Of course, I need to improve the soil (an entirely different approach from my Federal Twist garden), and I need piles of compost. But that's well in the future.
Why so dark? It will shrink your space!
ReplyDeleteThat space can't handle much shrinking ... And the garden will need as much reflected light as it can get. That's why I'm not going with that first impulse. Waiting a while. I think I'll eventually settle on a lighter color. Just wanted to hear some reactions. Thanks.
DeleteI actually like darker colors for houses/fences...even in smaller spaces. I always thing they seem full and rich...not oppressive. Plus, I think darker colors really allow plants to stand out...especially if you're already using golden foliage. Just my 2 cents :-) Darker fences seem to recede and disappear more easily, lighter ones always seem "present", reminding you exactly where the boundaries are. Then again...I'm no designer ;-)
ReplyDeleteI agree dark colors can make walls seem to recede and small spaces seem larger. I'm using a very dark color in the small apartment entranceway for that reason. I also want a dark color in the adjoining dining room because it's a small internal room (no windows), though it does open to the living (newly constructed) room, which opens onto the garden. I think a dark color will make the walls recede and the dining space actually seem larger. The living room will get plenty of light through the 12-foot-wide glass doors, so I'll use a lighter color there. In the garden, I agree the Sunburst honey locust would contrast nicely with a dark fence, but there are other considerations.
DeleteI seem to be getting lots of conflicting advice in the comments. But that's what I asked for. Thanks much.
the wood would look great sealed!
ReplyDeleteTrue, I could stain and let the grain show through. But this seems to be rather low quality white cedar, with lots of knots. Uhmmmmm ... What to do?
DeleteLighter James. Lighter. But then it seems you are going to use some darker greenery anyway. So maybe it won't matter.
ReplyDeleteBut I picture the idea of some very dark and branchless trunks rising to foliage overhead. And the trunks dark against a light background.
Kerry
Kerry, I see your point. Also, since box wood will be such an important part of the garden, it might disappear against the dark color. I may seek some kind of compromise between dark and light. Have to think about the main garden elements and how the colors will work together. Of course, you're the guy from sunny New Zealand. I gather quite sunny, dry, and hot.
DeleteYep. Summer time here. And hot right now. And in the winter cold. Yes and always dry. But very interested to see how your project goes. I think I have been a little too taken by your original idea. (Paley Park) was one. So I need to apologise for pushy advice that advances it in that direction. Kerry
DeleteI asked for it. Didn't I?
DeleteOh no! When I read the first sentence, I thought "yes, definitely". I love that black-green colour - a friend, who has a tiny garden here in London, has it too.
ReplyDeleteI think the best way to make a small garden look bigger is to make the boundaries "disappear". A dark colour will recede, whereas a light colour will come forward.
In my view, the point to consider is whether you want a foil for plants. I have a very dark fence, and the only drawback is that black-stemmed bamboo doesn't show up against it. On the other hand, most of the fence is covered with climbers anyway, so you can't see it.
If you want a very formal garden, with the shadows of the trees playing against it, perhaps at night, with lighting, then go for light.
Or why not just let it weather? It's a very nice fence.
My problem is I want both--a dark color for the elegant associations I have with "Charleston green" and for the color play with the Sunburst honey locust, and a lighter color so the fence makes a pleasing foil for the boxes and perennial plantings. I do intend to cover most of it with vines, so the color may not matter much in a few years. Thanks for confirming that others successfully use the black-green. Tomorrow I get to see it all in daylight (I've only seen cell phone photos) and may be better able to judge.
DeleteDark will also make the space hot in high summer, won't it? (Sorry 36C here) But perhaps you would appreciate warming in winter??
ReplyDeleteI'd go with a stone colour that the eye can blur into the buildings beyond, blur the boundary of the garden - and see the trees, not The Fence.
I gets so hot and humid in New York in the summer I doubt the fence color will make a perceptible difference. And I'll probably stay inside on those days. You do make a good point about a lighter color better matching the backs of the surrounding buildings and "blurring" the boundry of the garden. Good point. I'll think about that.
DeleteHaving lived in Charleston, I am partial to the color, but don't think I would stain your fence with it. How about a Cape Cod blue/gray? It would be lighter and create a neutral backdrop to whatever you end up planting.
ReplyDeleteSo you know why I like it. Gray I could live with. I think I need to think about the interior colors too, and work out from there. I've resisted thinking of the garden as an outdoor "room," but I suppose I have to admit it is, and it should work with the interior of the apartment. Cape Cod blue sounds strange, but the "Cape Cod blue" I have on color chips looks more gray than blue.
DeleteI agree with Victoria, black stain has my vote. Elegant. Think how nicely that would set off the stalks of, say, lighter shades of bamboo or sorbus... Two quick thoughts: first, have you thought about spot lights set in the ground? Light pollution, true, and overused, perhaps, but very nice at night. Second, should you not consider widening you bluestone terrace, to accommodate a large table (perhaps also of bluestone) and chairs? Think of the pleasures of dining outside on a hot summer's night -- Ross
ReplyDeleteRoss, I'm glad to hear another vote for the green-black. It IS an elegant color, and would set off lighter colored plants (the locust trees, as one key example) well. Yes, I do want uplights directed up the trunks of the trees. Definitely. As to the bluestone terrace, I gave it a lot of thought and decided we really won't eat out in the garden much, if at all, and I don't want to lose that much space right up against the house. I want room for some planting close in, perhaps a low red twigged dogwood to frame the view of the garden from inside.
DeleteWe had a deck on a brownstone we previously lived in and the lack of privacy was a real deterrent to eating out. Yes to sitting out, maybe having drinks out, and using the outside space for parties. I have an idea for a paved area mid to back garden (not on the plans because it's still a real "maybe") made of bluestone squares laid in gravel, and that area might accommodate a table if we find our neighbors' behavior is conducive to more outside living.
Forgot to mention I haven't rejected trying some kind of "Italian" water feature with moss and ferns. But that's for later.
DeleteI tend to agree with a putty color to blur with the buildings beyond. Excellent progress!
ReplyDeleteDenise, thanks. I don't disagree. That color would make the fence blend well with the buildings beyond it.
DeleteSlap that Charleston green on it James, all over it, I love that colour too. Victoria is right, a darker colour helps to quieten down the edges. What about the pool? you could paint the inside black, the water would have an almost mirrored surface and it would be difficult to discern the bottom.
ReplyDeleteAnother vote for dark green, Rob. Hey, I may even dye the water black. I saw black dye used in pools in Stonecrop Garden north of the city last summer. And I know Anne Wareham uses it in her beautiful black pool in her garden Veddw. I don't think it's toxic.
DeleteI'm with Victoria. I would go for a dark colour. It will act as a wonderful backdrop to the plants and if you are careful with the selection of plants you can lighten the garden that way. If you do the fence a light colour it will draw more attention to it
ReplyDeleteThat's the problem. Many of the plants I want to use have dark colors. I have to resolve this conflict. But I'll give it a couple of weeks before making a decision.
DeleteI looked up Charleston Green, and it's great. The Sunburst trees would really shine against it. I would also think about how a lighter fence color would interact with the colors of the backs of your neighbors' houses -- especially for the first few years. I think the dark color would make a nice contract with all of those that you can see in the pictures.
ReplyDeleteCindy, I think your focus on the houses seen beyond the fence is very important. I remain in a state of indecision, but fortunately there's time to think about it.
DeleteI'd skip the geotextile fabric under the gravel. Dirt will blow into the gravel and accumulate over time on top of the fabric providing a place for weeds to root anyway. If you've ever redone an area where there was gravel on fabric you will know what I mean. Save the money and add more gravel instead.
ReplyDeleteI know the fabric won't prevent things from seeding in the gravel. I have the same problem in the Federal Twist garden in the country. What it does do, apparently, is retard the sinking of the gravel into the mud. Not a lot, but it helps. I do need deeper gravel, but that will have to come later. I'll have to bring it in bagged, using my new Red Flyer wagon.
DeleteI'm very happy to hear you're going for the box wood and honey locusts - from the designs you've pondered, it's the one I would have voted for. And like you, my only worry with the dark fence would be a lack of contrast with the boxwood. What about the staining idea? Maybe with a really good quality stain and a few layers it would be OK. And for your box wood balls, have you considered mixing different ball-shaped plants to get a range of greens? Maybe yew, euonymous, even deciduous plants? Just a random thought :).
ReplyDeleteI thought I hadn't made the decision, but I can't get away from it. I believe I'm certainly going with the locusts underplanted with box. I passed the nursery planting of sycamores underplanted with box just this morning, driving along the Delaware near Federal Twist Road, and it spoke to me. Although there are options to box, I want box. I love the texture of the small leaves, and I love the smell in summer. I know very well many others think it smells like cat pee; for me, it's a well of memories.
DeleteEveryone's throwing their two cents at you, Golden James! I wonder...is this helpful or is it just adding some indecision? It's interesting from where I'm sitting, regardless. Here's more cents: Rachelle is totally correct regarding the geo-textile - I would only use it underneath a fairly paved surface...like under the bluestone. And yes: I agree with the idea of using a dark tone for the fence but would prefer to see a warm black/charcoal instead of the dark green. This would nix the contrast issue with the buxus...so to speak. And it's neutrality will allow more freedom of choice with the remaining elements. And Wild William is right - use a stain instead of paint. It will age with more dignity. No one will mind the knots. In fact, if you look closely you might notice that the knots are quite beautiful. There you are - two more cents. I suppose by now you might about 48 cents worth? Hmm.
ReplyDeletePeter, I feel like a privileged member of an exclusive cyber garden club. A little stirred up and confused, but it's helpful to hear all the suggestions and ideas of others.
DeleteInteresting idea you have to move to a "warm black/charcoal" to get the contrast with the "buxus." More "freedom of choice," you say. I'm for that. (I wonder what Newt would think about freedom of choice?) I will definitely use a stain, but an opaque stain. As to the geotextile, my choice would be a layer of geotextile, but just to prevent the rock from sinking into the earth too fast, then two or three inches of rough stone aggregate, then a three inch layer of pea gravel. But I can't afford that and will have to live with future problems (bringing in more gravel through the house, laying bluestone selectively on the gravel, etc.). Thanks for contributing to my problem.
BTW Rachelle is absolutely right about the geotextile fabric, in my experience. I've found that a thick layer of sand beneath a chunky layer of pebbles or gravel is fairly weedproof. And if weeds do arrive, they're pretty easy to pull up out of the sand.
ReplyDeleteThe fabric stuff is a pain - however carefully you lay it, or pin it down, it always seems to wrinkle up, or have an edge or a fold showing somewhere.
Victoria, you're the third person to attest to the fact that weed suppressing geotextile does no such thing. I agree. In fact, a good layer under gravel seems to promote seed germination. But, as you say, the seedlings are easy to pull out.
DeleteJames, I'm sure you're fed up with all our conflicting advice, but one last thought: what about both colours? You could paint the fence the neutral putty colour and then pin black-stained trellis to it? You wouldn't need to cover the whole fence, you could just have panels, a bit like a Japanese screen effect. I've pasted a link here, which is not a particularly good example of what I mean, but nearest I could get!
ReplyDeleteYou could have slatted panels, rather than traditional trellis, if you wanted a more contemporary look.
http://www.classic-garden-elements.co.uk/item.php/Wall%20Trellis/Large%20Modern%20Wall%20Trellis/
Victoria, very creative solution and one I'll give serious consideration to. In some form that concept might be the solution, though it sounds expensive. The geometric repetition would be lovely. I do admire your garden and wish I could use some of your planting as a model (such as that beautiful Montezuma pine and bananas), but your tender things would just be frozen to death here. What is London's climate, equivalent to our zone 9 or 10? More like Miami. (I know you've been having a very cold spell.) Thanks for the link.
DeleteTee hee, I think you have plenty of advisers so I will leave you to proceed un encumbered by any more. Glad you are having fun in the decision making tho!
ReplyDeletebest
R
Tawdry! I just read your blog post about focal views. Yes, I want to erase my view, and hope the trees will help do that. And I want the garden fence to help erase the view, either by making the visual difference minimal (so you don't notice the surrounding houses as the "view") or making a dramatic gesture (dark, arresting color, perhaps?) that draws attention away from the surroundings into the garden. All of this is a probably a matter of instant perception as you walk into the garden. I can get 6 oz. color samples of wood stains. I must get them and do some testing.
DeleteHi, James, yes, we are allegedly equivalent to zone 9, which puts us on a par with San Antonio, TX, New Orleans, LA and San Francisco, CA. However, we don't get anything like their heat levels or hours of sunshine, which make a huge difference.
ReplyDeleteBut neither do we (generally) get very cold winters. I'm moaning at the moment because we're going down to -4C(25F) at night - that's nothing really, in NY terms.
When you think that London is 11 degrees north of New York, it really demonstrates how much difference all that ocean makes to the climate of our small island.
around our small island makes a huge difference.
Years ago I remember visiting a person renovating a house in London and I was amazed that his heating system was, to me, laughably inadequate, at least to a New Yorker's eyes. It was something like a hot water heater that sent hot water through plastic tubing. A New York heating system is really heavy duty and pumps out a tremendous amount of hear. You're blessed by the Gulf Stream.
DeleteMy .02 is for a flat charcoal. I think it does a better job of fading away than does a light color. And then, too, the trunks of the trees might make a more graphic statement in front of the dark fence. For some reason, a tan fence behind the trees does not evoke the same intentional, graphic response. Part of the fence might be obfuscated by a simple trellis carrying a green vine if you are ambivalent about it. I think dark colors are a beautiful foil for dark/true green boxwood and for the colors of any perennials you may choose.
ReplyDeleteGood luck...I can't wait to see how this will develop.
Emily
Your suggestion is similar to Peter Holt's "warm black/charcoal" I think. I see what you mean about the intentional, graphic effect using that color. Good choice of words. I want to seriously consider this suggestion and explore what is available. Hope I can get a few samples this weekend, apply them to sections of the fence, and live with them for a few weeks. Thanks, Emily.
DeleteI just discovered your blog and am really enjoying your archives, I love seeing a garden through the creation process.
ReplyDeleteI'm a bit late chiming in here, but my vote would be for a brown that's so dark as to be almost black. I'm a bit partial, we painted our house that color. It's so organic and looks quite natural behind plantings. We pay for it in the summer, but such is the cost of good looks. I also like warm black/charcoal idea, maybe a bit more "modernist" feeling.
Julie, brown is a color I haven't considered at all. Strange, because out house at Federal Twist is brown, a gray/brown that blends well into the woods. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll certainly keep it in mind. No decisions are final until I buy the stain and start spraying it on.
DeleteI agree with those that suggest a lighter color. I painted a fence that yiu could see through and it did disappear. But I fear with a solid fence like this it could feel like a barrier. The lighter color will also be less maintenance as it won't show fading and peeking as fast as dark colors. I stained a shed a sage gene four years ago and it still looks fresh. I used Behr semi-solid stain from Home Depot. It reads more solid but does show some grain. It covers knots thigh pretty well. It adheres well and no peeling or fading yet.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Jeff. I'm hoping to get to Home Despot this afternoon to get some samples of their opaque wood stains. And I hope to find a compromise between dark and light. Something like a charcoal gray with a kind of light "bloom" on the surface. Not too dark, but certainly not a bright color. I'm glad to get your feedback on experience with the Behr stains since that's readily available and I've heard pretty good quality.
DeleteIdea: paint the outside of the fence a dark color and the inside a light color. Then, like a heat pump, it will keep your planting area warm in winter & cool in summer. Also, your space will appear larger and your neighbor's spaces smaller:)
ReplyDeleteAn interesting idea, but unfortunately not feasible in my situation. Most of my new fence is up against the neighboring fences and I can't even get to the outside. Because the outside won't be stained, I understand that wood will breath and moisture will come through to the stained side. But I'm also told the Behr wood stains can accommodate that without pealing or bubbling, whereas paint would do that. I'm looking for a color with characteristics of both dark and light, contradictory as that sounds.
Delete